憶苦思甜 那個黃昏 忽然起孖

做咗煙壹啤 伊人與可人

初會伊人 細心關懷

再遇可人 更加安穩

[ 本帖最後由 SPA愛上她 於 2012-4-21 17:04 編輯 ]

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can you please elaborate what you just said ...
a female customer left because she heard male customers talking about the BGs and because of this you feel the sauna should not cater to female customers ???  don't understand your logic !

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I have a question for everyone ...

Windsor have now raised the suggested tip for the girls to be at least $150 for 2 sessions

what would you do if you find the girl's skill / strength to be below your expectations ?

also what if you find the BG's performance below average but not so bad that one needs to actually complain ?

how does one tip in these situations ???

The problem from Windsor's point of view, which reflects many of the bgs' opinions, is that there are too many customers who are . . . let's see, how to say this . . . uh . . . CHEAP!!     So Windsor is trying to protect the girls' income to some minimum level.  If a customer can't afford the HK$75/session minimum tip, then neither the bgs nor Windsor really want you for a customer!!

I know bgs who've had to deal with repeating customers who would only book them for ONE SESSION, and then would only pay HK$50 tip for that session.  By doing these customers, the bgs were not making any real income while losing their spot in the queue to do a two-session customer who might at least pay HK$100/session tips.  Sort of a double-sting.  So I can sympathise with skilled, hardworking bgs who get bad customers.

But there are bgs at Windsor whose skills aren't worth my time either.  For these girls, I would pay a HK$100/session tip if their skills are in the range of average, but not book them again.  If they are really bad, I will end the session before the second session begins, and pay the minimum tip for the one session.  In these very rare cases, I will make up a reason to leave early.  For such bgs, I may tell 寶文 that the girl was really sub-par, then, if I still have time, re-book another girl.  It will get back to the first bg by one channel (management) or another (second bg) that she wasn't up to par.

Nonetheless, if Windsor is going to set a minimum tip, and raise it over time, then I'd like to see them invest in having a 師傅 test the bgs' skills at the point of hire, and perhaps provide some further checks and ongoing training (at Windsor's expense) where needed; perhaps once a month for the first three months of hire.  Windsor does offer training by a 師傅 if the bgs want it, but the bgs have to pay out of their own pocket for the training, which most bgs understandably decline to do, as it isn't cheap.  I think the price I heard once from a bg was in the neighbourhood of HK$5000.   It would be to the advantage of all (customers, bgs, and Windsor) if Windsor invested in establishing and maintaining a higher standard of bg skill.  After all, Windsor would have us believe that it is a better class of sauna/spa . . .

[ 本帖最後由 observer2012 於 2012-4-25 00:10 編輯 ]

I don't believe Windsor have a sei-fu that teaches entry girls anymore, but I might be wrong.

When I find myself with a girl that can't massage properly I usually still go through the sessions and pay the tip anyway - with a reminder to myself not to try her again. This has never happened to me in Windsor as (so far - touch wood) the ones I've tried has been up to standard.

But this is what a friend of mine told me when he did a repeat of a BG there ... her massage skills were OK to good (she's been quite popular in Windsor for sometime) so he did 3 sessions with her the first time and tipped her $100 per session.
Second time with her, he again asked for 3 sessions, everything was well until the middle of the 2nd session when she started to talk about how much tips other clients gives her and how the ones that only gives $100 per session are cheap, how it was hard for her to make a living with so many girls in competition etc etc etc ... this went on until the end of the 3 sessions !!!
so for more then 1 hour he had to endure her ranting ...

how does one tip under these circumstances ?  
$100 per session is not great but not bad either !

Regarding cfu teaching underskilled girls,in the past there have been one or two occasions when a veteran cfu was  called upon to teach newly-joined girls on an adhoc basis.

[ 本帖最後由 白貓兒 於 2012-4-25 16:12 編輯 ]

Well, Windsor should get that cfu back on line.  Maybe put her on salary to make it worth her time to help out.  I'd say at least 50% of the current technicians at Windsor need training.  A customer should be able to walk in and expect a better-than-average massage from any assigned technician.  It's pretty much hit-or-miss now.  Given the cost of a massage there, and the caliber of sauna that Windsor wants us to believe it is, this shouldn't be the case.

[ 本帖最後由 observer2012 於 2012-4-26 10:24 編輯 ]

$100/session tip for pure veg is fine.  My regular bgs all tell me most girls are quite happy to get $100/session tips.  So if a bg, in the regular line of vegan duty, complains that $100/session is "cheap", and talks about this all during the massage, you can complain to 寶文 or at the front desk on your way out.  But don't do this lightly; Windsor does punish bgs who whine for tips.  These girls can be taken out of the customer queue for days or even weeks, and must then rely solely on direct customer bookings for their income during that time.

Now if your friend was pushing for VAS, many bgs do make it clear that $100/session is below market.  If this was the case (or is the case, should that be the case for all you VAS cases ), then please don't complain to management that the girl was whining about tips.  Ideally, a girl should state her price just once, and the customer should either put up or shut up at that point.  If she doesn't stop talking about tips because the customer won't stop requesting something extra, then you've both put commerce ahead of atmosphere and get what you deserve.

Again, complain to management only for situations that are pure veg in nature.

[ 本帖最後由 observer2012 於 2012-4-26 10:28 編輯 ]

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I'm cueing into "everything was well until the middle of the 2nd session", which suggests that "something popped up" at that point to warrant the ongoing monologue on tips.  You may want to check with your friend about this, just to put that customer's grumble into proper context.

When "things pop up", many bgs at Windsor see an income opportunity, and can be a bit 硬銷.   As discusssed previously, more bgs seem to be more aggressive about offering VAS now, which is pushing Windsor closer to the open airport category among HK saunas.

I first want to state I agree on almost all the things you have said so far about the state of affairs in Windsor, I see and also hear from others the exact same things being discussed here

For myself, I usually stick to the few regular BGs I know but I also have tried some new BGs recently and found their massage skills to be acceptable, so far in the new Windsor, I have not experienced any BG that I found their skills to be unacceptable.
I thank my lucky stars !

I'm not going to ask my friend more as I don't think the comfort level is there for us to go into details, all I told him is to find another BG and not do her again ... she is experienced in Windsor (though I never tried her) but she just lost a decent client as he likes to repeat and the only reason he tried her was because his regular ones left or didn't work on that day, he thought her massage was good so he repeated.

all I think from all this is ... usually a "more experienced" BG would not do any added service the first time with a client, when this client repeats she already knows how much he tiped previously, so it goes on from there ... it seems the newer BG would offer the added services the first time ...

so back to my question - if a client only wants a massage (no VAS) and he got a poor massage because the girl is unable to give one ... is it justified for Windsor to raise the minimum tip when the level of their BGs drop ?  

I am fully aware of the cheap clients Windsor have (especially at night - mostly after 1 am) and I fully endorse everyone to tip the BG over and above the minimum set but I also want to make it clear that we, as clients, have our rights to receiving a decent massage when we go there.

Ideally, in a fair market, if the bg is no good she should expect to forego any tips (and know the reason why).  But the market isn't really fair.  Many (and I do mean many) customers try to pay as little as possible when they have no loyalty to the bg and there is no one looking over their shoulder to call them cheap.  If there was no minimum tip, I believe too many customers would not pay any tip at all.  As I know you know (and most of us should know), bgs survive only on the tips they can earn.  Not paying a bg a decent tip for service well-provided is sort of like spitting in her face.  

For good veggie, $100/session is the standard tip, and most bgs are happy with that.  That's really not a lot of money to pay for coming away feeling much better than when you went in.  Assuming 2 sessions per customer. if a bg can do two to three customers a day, she comes away with only about $520 to $780 for her hard work (assume $40/session "wages" + $90/session tip after Windsor takes 10%).  Could we support a family on that income?  Not easily.  But many bgs do (themselves, parents and/or kids).

I say all of the above only to re-inforce what you and others have told brothers here many times.  Tipping always seems to be an issue in this forum, and the fact that tips are the major source of income for bgs in veggie saunas needs to be repeatedly made clear.

To answer your posed question on how to convey dissatifaction with a bg in the context of Windsor's rising minimum tip, all I can say is to complain "nicely" to management that the bg you experienced wasn't really good.  I find 寶文 to be quite receptive to constructive criticism about the bgs and the sauna.  He can and does talk to the girls, and I assume he can and does talk to the bosses if he sees something wrong in the business operation.

I don't think complaining about specific bg's lack of skills at the front desk presently does much good, as I don't think desk staff are trained to handle such complaints/reporting.  But we can pose the question at the front desk about the minimum tip really being required if the bg's service really isn't good at all (e.g., "Do I have to pay the minimum tip if the bg's massage is really bad?").  If enough of us asked this question rhetorically at payment time, I'm sure someone would eventurally take notice that customers want a channel of communication with both the sauna management and the bgs that we expect a minimum standard of skill before a tip is handed over.  We could all try this, right?

[ 本帖最後由 observer2012 於 2012-4-26 15:28 編輯 ]