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Xocat: 請提供ban其他人等(除crazybb同loksiu)之concrete evidence

Xocat: 請提供ban其他人等(除crazybb同loksiu)之concrete evidence

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xocat says elsewhere:

'if they see it, they should discuss with me POINT BY POINT.  I have good language ability that I can present things 有條理地. '

I would love to see xocat respond 'point by point' here. There are three distinct points.

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Let us come back for a response, hopefully round the start of next week.
Have you alerted him via PM as well?

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回復 #1 炮艇工兵 的帖子

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Thanks.  Though I think you have to reread my posts very carefully first...  cause I'm going to repeat my points in which I think you neglect.
And I want to say, if one make a decision, you can't make a needle to have both ends sharp.  I regret that my decision might have bad consequences, but those can be corrected easily.  You keep asking me why I ban... I keep answering that this is not a permanent ban and i want to find out who is my enemy like loksiu... group affiliation is the wost personality of human beings... they decide things based on their group affiliation...
引用:
Unfortunately, I do not find your responses convincing in addressing the rationale behind banning the 20+ members, and can only agree that you and I continue to differ in our views on how the administrator should attend to members' concerns and views, and the issues surrounding this forum's management style or how it has deteriorated since the move from the old forum to here.
I might have some weak points in banning... I repeat and repeat... don't keep on it again... so those banned members can discuss with me privately so that I can see who is 無間道...  have you made any mistakes in your life?  I wonder... many people make mistakes... I'm not God... I made mistakes as well... so pls give me a hand to help correct mistakes.
引用:
I will stop discussing the latter issue since I don't see how we can make any progress with the huge difference in opinion between us. However, I would ask you to please provide the concrete evidence on the "crime" committed by the 20 odd members who got banned.

1. You said: "questioning someone sin is very impolite...  especially someone didn't have a sin.   And you didn't have concrete evidence. If someone question about you to ask if you have committed that sin but without evidence publicly, you're very embarrassed.... Try it out for your friends, you won't even do it."

You banned the 20 odd members as you held the opinion that "That thread is like "how to create a bomb" to bomb this forum... I will [won't?] forget it forever... Will you make publish a article on how to create a bomb in the Internet?  That is obviously illegal and devastating...Everyone involved in that thread are highly suspected to bomb our forum or make us die..."

If suspicion was the only reason for banning the majority of these members, which you said, then why would you persistently demand members to provide concrete evidence before passing a judgment? Am I missing any concrete evidence that you had already provided? We can't apply double standard. If indeed concrete evidence is needed before any accusation. speculation or opinion is expressed, why would it not also hold true for banning members? And would your execution act not create the same kind of embarrassment (see red text above) to these people?

I would therefore request that you provide concrete evidence that the likes of Brasco, 京子, Big Rock, Oldgun, 芝華士女朋友Kay, 屈臣氏,帶子洪郎, apeapeape, goldenbaby, tyco, deepblue2002, lu, messenger, 6769, peter123, gtc, etc. are actively involved in the conspiracy to bring down Timway or make it "BIG" as you described. Particularly in the case of deepblue2002, who merely put up one post which was a single smilie symbol after the banning.
Yes, I repeat: my banning might have mistakes... as have been elaborated by other users... so they can discuss with me like 屈臣氏, and I will ban him at once... like 屈臣氏... I have a short list privately for who is affiliated with loksiu in other forum... but I can't disclose it... they have their heaven to play... why stay at this shit... and keep on stepping it.  

as we already know, banning is not a true punishment... and I see the bad side of it... they can come back again... banning is for admin purpose only... so that we have to trace out who is on the side of loksiu... so, pls don't ask me again why I ban people... they have no money loss... and they can get it back again if they like...

Of all these years, I don't like banning, you all people see it... but someone is so troublesome that want to affiliate with others to destroy xocat... so I also felt sorry about those who I banned... and those who are unbanned deserve my true apology... and those who don't want to talk to me, I'm sorry... because you don't have motivation to talk... I can't carry out the unban.
引用:
2. You keep saying that many banned members have been unbanned. Please provide concrete evidence that this is the case as I haven't seen any or many of the above getting unbanned.
mtr613
小潔
6769
messenger
fuk
炮艇工兵: you
屈臣氏
happycamel

I have strong motivation to unban others... my life has been with such friends for all these years... they are my friends, not enemies... but if you are not on loksiu's private forum list which I have in my confidential file, I will give you a chance... the concrete evidence:
http://forum.timway.com/f/profile-uid-8419.html
and
a forum that is created by loksiu with his net friends... I know what it is and where it is...
引用:
3. In your original posting to provide the reason for banning, you indicated that: "單打, 即ban. Instead: concrete suggestions pls. With regard to about 10 users being banned, as they attack xocat in a lot of ways without giving concrete suggestions.  And this has been for over 6 months... Robin and I keep our eyes on it for long... I've been silent for a long time... many many users support me banning them but I intend to wait to see if they can give us any good suggestions... instead, they just keep 單打 and 單打... this is not a healthy atmosphere..." Note that this rule was published after the banning had occurred.

But in subsequent exchanges, you turned the reason to the fact that they were (or suspected to be) on the side of crazybb and/or loksiu. You knew that ".....some good persons are accidentally killed, but I have resumed their accounts, and make them alive again, on the name of God, sorry, not God , on the name of xocat." But you kept demanding that those who were not on the side of crazybb or loksiu to please pm you to request for unbanning. This is inconsistent with what you said about you have unbanned many "good persons". Are the ones who do not pm you to request are not "good persons"?
From the resource/economy point of view, it takes a lot of time to decide who is good or bad...  I'm sorry again... deeply sorry... so, pls PM me.  Thanks.
引用:
You spoke of law, I admire your knowledge. I know little of law but I do know that under the laws of HK, and in fact many other places, a person is presumed innocent until proven guilty. It's not incumbent upon a person to prove innocent; it's incumbent upon the prosecutor to prove the accused is guilty beyond doubts. Where is the proof that anyone or all of them is or are involved in that "bring down Timway" plot, if there were indeed such a plot? You inferred your assessment of loksiu's plot to bring down Timway based upon what's written in his profile, but where is you inference for the others?
I'm sorry again... but all of them have the right of 上訴...
Or you can say, those banned are under investigations... I'm sorry for their embarrassment, but those who unbanned deserve my apology for that embarrassment...
引用:
If you do not have concrete evidence that the above-mentioned banned members were actively involved with the "plot", please in the name of xocat (God) unban them for the very reason that you said you have unbanned the "good persons" without having them to send any pm.
I'm sorry.  Concrete evidence stated above and I have the list... What is the big problem of just PM me using 1 minute?  You just need to press a button to let me know about your thinking... Pls don't stuck on this PM issue...
引用:
This is not a place for kissing up, and no one will kiss up for the sake of reclaiming their own respectful identity and integrity which they never lost or did damage to in the first place.
I'm sorry again.  And I'm sorry about this incidence, but this can be rescued and recovered easily... you don't have to make it big again...   Resuming account: I repeat, is my strong motivation... they are the assets of this forum... so, pls talk to me... I'm your friend, talking to your friend to help solve misunderstanding is the best way... not hiding from me... Misunderstanding is very easy to happen in this world especially in HK, education system doesn't teach us very well how to present how ideas clearly... I regret about it... so, a lot of unquality posts of very short sentences result, this is the thing I really want to improve in this forum... if you can just shout out some short sentences, that's not good......so misunderstanding happens all the time.  Let me ask you, if your friend and you have some misunderstanding, will you just hide and don't talk... I won't hide... I will surely talk... but because I have to deal with 10s of users, pls give me a little hand, talk to me and let me know for your thinking... I will surely listen.  especially you're not on loksiu side.

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Every one make mistake, if I already said: "I'm sorry about this"... pls do accept this... no one can make a needle both sides sharp... I repeat... pls give me a break... I did have the rationale behind this middle strategy...  and I"m sorry again...

Did you make a mistake in your life... you dare to say sorry?  The hardest 3 words in the world are not "I love you", but "I am sorry"...

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Well, xocat finally makes categorical apologies. which I appreciate.

I wonder why xocat did not take the initiative of sending PMs to banned members (in their recognisable new identities) other than loksiu/crazybb soon after the massive killings, sincerely asking them to confirm whether they will continue to behave in the interest of the forum, or side with loksiu/crazybb (using xocat's terms).

I guess that the first few of the unbanned members got unbanned through
friends' intermediation.
I wonder how many of the rest of the unbanned have actually PMed xocat to 'pledge
allegiance/disclaim alliance with loksiu'. But that does not matter by now.

[ 本帖最後由 白貓兒 於 2007-8-19 23:34 編輯 ]

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引用:
原帖由 白貓兒 於 2007-8-19 21:57 發表
Well, xocat finally makes categorical apologies. which I appreciate.

I wonder why xocat could not have taken the initiative of sending PMs to banned members other than loksiu/crazybb soon after  ...
admin reason, how can one be banned can or want to access this forum again?  don't bother with PM anymore la...

Very technical/economic/environmental friendly (I have to use air conditioning) reasons...

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also, I already state it in the public of how to talk to me like friend do... this is the very simple guideline that a child of 8 can follow.

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Personally, I do not wish to press xocat anymore with queries on the issue in question, particularly of the procedural side. I have insisted on matters of principle and honestly I can't say I am satisfied with all answers. Of course, other interested members and stakeholders might continue to pose queries or refuse to accept the reality as it is, which is understandable.


If I am to remain in this forum and maintain a certain level of activity, I can only look forward to the future.

And I do hope that xocat is one among us in drawing a lesson.

I hope that xocat is more sensitive, understanding, thoughtful and humane now.

I hope that we will not have to press xocat hard for statements and explanations again in the future , and that he will more actively consult the remaining faithful and helpful members/moderators/board masters, few as there may seem to be now.

This is my note of caution and self-comfort.

[ 本帖最後由 白貓兒 於 2007-8-20 11:06 編輯 ]

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I appreciate rational discussions, not short sentences shouting like before...


So, I'm happy now...

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I can't say I am truly happy, mind you.
But life is full of eclipses.

xocat, when you have a Via Media (Latin: 'middle way/strategy') in mind, do not presume that you are always the one in the best position to weigh all considerations to arrive at the middle way. Others see things with different weightings. I hope you are more transparent as to how you weigh things in the future. When your thoughts are compared alongside others' early enough, good compromises might result.

[ 本帖最後由 白貓兒 於 2007-8-20 11:08 編輯 ]

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so, I did make a sentence that I appreciate what loksiu have done to xocat... pls reread my post... I did see man and ghosts... but in this world of 2007, zombie did have many... and stories of man turn into ghosts do have many... I'm sad that he turned into ghosts... or zombie, so I have to remove him from this forum.  Ghosts want to destroy us... that is concrete evidence... he has been supportive, that is also concrete... no one is 100% man or 100% ghost... No one.

But he has made it in the signature that he want to destory us... all is clear.

for promoting other forum, I see it is hard to implement or very hard in technical term to implement.  But it becomes a culture/norm for most big forum, so I implement it.  This is a rule that you don't have to question... thanks.  (just because this is a rule)     And somehow, it hurts xocat.

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XOCAT, you have said enough against loksiu.
Please refrain from repeating your condemnation.
There are bound to be members who still resist it.
(I say this without siding with him, and  repeat I do not particularly approve of his manners in general.)

Please give peace of the mind some chance. Let people take their time to forget (though they may not accept it in their hearts.)
Be understanding.

[ 本帖最後由 白貓兒 於 2007-8-20 11:10 編輯 ]

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引用:
原帖由 xocatII 於 2007-8-19 22:34 發表

for promoting other forum, I see it is hard to implement or very hard in technical term to implement.  But it becomes a culture/norm for most big forum, so I implement it.  This is a rule that you don't have to question... thanks.  (just because this is a rule)  
xocat, yesterday a member posted a thread telling us that a forum for dissenting members to join after leaving xocat forum had just been built. This forum was conveniently set up at no cost.

You deleted the thread, presumably in accordance with the relevant forum rule against posting the links of other forum websites.

If such a rule is to be rigidly enforced, every act of posting alternative forum links should be banned. But in this case, I think that the member banned simply wanted to let dissenters know of that newly-built forum as a refuge, or a way out解脫 of their dissatisfaction here. That forum is only at its budding stage and mere knowledge of it does not pose a threat to your forum. If you had not deleted that thread, you could have made members here feel that you are understanding enough to allow them to let out their emotion in a non-threatening manner. Please note the message therein was worded mildly and I did not find it offensive or antagonistic to the xocat forum.

(The posting member asked you to be understanding and not to ban his thread/him, only to find that you actually did. I don't think he meant to test you; to me he seemed to assume that you would be tolerant. Did you know that he had just written today on the old xocat forum: '我某預佢咁少氣架'?  Sigh. )

I would agree that the initiator of the thread could have instead alerted selected members known to be dissenters here of the newly built forum by a private means like PM. But at the same time there might be a portion of your more silent members who to a certain extent share the dissatisfaction of the outspoken ones here.

xocat, you could have announced on the thread that you would allow the thread to exist here for a few days, long enough for all interested to take notice of it, before you delete it at the end of this grace period. You could also have demanded that no one should come back to publicise this forum again in the future. Then the thread could have been locked to stop further promotion before it was removed later. Such an approach could have helped present an image of broadmindedness and reasonable tolerance, if you ever give importance to it. You could also have added that outgoing members are always free and welcome to come back as long as any emotive remarks against your forum are not made here.

xocat, you have said you seek a Via Media (middle road) amid conflicting concerns and demands. Maybe to do so you need to a bit more flexible about rules and try to view things more from the perspective of unhappy members here. The letters of a rule can be made to look so 'big', so overwhelming that we get obsessed to it, become cold unfeeling people and even look authoritarian, though we may not really mean to be so.

More often than not, the choice to make  is not an either-or. There is a third option, a middle way that can incorporate more considerations, be accepted by more and encourage mutual trust .

Therefore, in retrospection I offer you an alternative approach to the thread in question.

[ 本帖最後由 白貓兒 於 2007-8-20 13:05 編輯 ]

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引用:
for promoting other forum, I see it is hard to implement or very hard in technical term to implement.  But it becomes a culture/norm for most big forum, so I implement it.  This is a rule that you don't have to question... thanks.  (just because this is a rule)     And somehow, it hurts xocat.
I do agree with XocatII about this rule, personally I disagree with 白貓兒's suggestion for allowing a thread here to promote other forums, neither in a temporary nor a permanent measure...i just wanna share my thought as a forum member....

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今次事件看出不同人的心態 , 醜陋面孔為數最多 , 不多談以免被說煽火 ,我覺得版主處理得正確 , 亦直接令到這個討論區 , 不再成為權力爭奪或是結黨營私的地方 。如果用恐嚇單打圍攻想控制這個討論區 , 不如像有些靜靜回覆了戶口的人一樣 ,  繼續在此玩樂 。真的因為道德問題對事而不是對人的 , 其他人是能夠分辨出來的 。

[ 本帖最後由 superfans 於 2007-8-20 13:02 編輯 ]

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引用:
原帖由 superfans 於 2007-8-20 13:00 發表
今次事件看出不同人的心態 , 醜陋面孔為數最多 , 不多談以免被說煽火 ,我覺得版主處理得正確 , 亦直接令到這個討論區 , 不再成為權力爭奪或是結黨營私的地方 。如果用恐嚇單打圍攻想控制這個討論區 , 不如像有些靜 ...
請問閣下認為自己屬於那一類?醜陋面孔?煽火?權力爭奪?結黨營私?恐嚇單打圍攻?

閣下這番討人歡心的"偉論"是打算為事件作總結嗎?大夥兒似乎正在為此事作正面而善意之溝通和交流。閣下這番言論是想再挑起事端嗎?

人貴自知,故本人近日甚少就此事再亂說一通,以免遭人恥笑,自取其辱。望閣下亦能共勉之。

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別人可以不認同 , 但這事實是否沒有出現過呢 , 這次事件亦發現另一個重點 , 從前曾經出來攪事的 , 也因為正常戶口被禁止迫得用上後備戶口 , 事情就這樣曝光了。

[ 本帖最後由 superfans 於 2007-8-20 14:48 編輯 ]

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