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標題: [建議] To XOCATII [打印本頁]

作者: 白貓兒 時間: 2007-8-18 12:32 標題: To XOCATII

I am glad that 小潔 has been revived.
Can you proceed to listen to my advice?

Maybe, xocat, you need to give us a list of the kinds of unwelcome speech as an annex to the established forum rules.

When such a list is not yet exhaustive, please simply delete a particular piece of speech undesirable in your eyes without automatically banning the speaker, especially when there is as yet no explicit provision against that kind of speech in the forum rules.

Your purpose is to stop people making things big; to achieve that you need not ban the speaker automatically/in the first instance. After the necessary deletion, make an announcement right on the spot to make people learn not to follow in the 'offender's footsteps. After all, 小潔's utterance was most probably the first of its kind on our forum. There is no precedent. Let your ruling (without a ban) be the precedent, and anyone who does the same next time will be banned, ok??

I would not agree that 'common sense' necessarily steers us away from the 'don'ts' in your mind, given your style of 「無為而治」(or such you claim) in the past.

We simply have no idea, though I am aware that there is a provision against煽動言論 in general . But your style in the past was a tendency to first warn and rebuke before killing.

We are just not used to it.
Help us comply with you without having to 'live in fear' at the same time.
Help us get to know clearly the limits to our freedom of speech here. Or we can work them out together with more mutual understanding and forgiving.

Now that you seem to have changed style somewhat and become more restrictive, specify your tattoos and prohibitions first before they take their punitive 懲罰性effect.

Don't you agree that mutual understanding and forgiving is the solution to the current crisis?

I humbly follow your example and copy this text I have written on another thread over here.

[ 本帖最後由白貓兒於 2007-8-18 13:16 編輯 ]

作者: 白貓兒 時間: 2007-8-18 12:39

XOCAT, it seems that you are ready to revive a person you have banned after you listen to our fellows' pleas and find them acceptable. Why, then, do you have to ban the person in the first place and leave us wondering when you will accept the pleas? You understand about 小潔; I think you at least feel that she has all along behaved well enough by your standard. Why, then, did her friends have to stand up for her and appeal to you, when you could have saved their trouble?

Why could you not weigh her good record/merits against this offence of hers first? Doesn't the former, which is cumulative and long-standing, ouweigh the latter, which is only very recent? Wouldn't such consideration have led you to give her a chance and a warning short of a ban?

Couldn't you delete what's written, rebuke and threaten to ban if the same kind of thing is done again in the future?

You wouldn't have had to go back on your act of banning, and could remain assertive of your rules at the same time.
This would have helped to raise your credibility among us, which somehow has fallen.

This is the gist of my message should you find my text above too lengthy.
And I hope you don't consider me shouting.

[ 本帖最後由白貓兒於 2007-8-18 13:34 編輯 ]

作者: 白貓兒 時間: 2007-8-18 13:03

Another thing is...regarding your interpretation/branding of lokiu's speech as accusatory of 流料, I have stated my objection and opinions on post #12 on:

http://forum.timway.com/f/thread-122425-1-1.html

Presuming you stick to your ruling and dismiss my plea, would you care to respond saying to what extent you agree/disagree to my views stated there?

xocat, you say that it is good to post one's opinions and questions and send an alert to you in a PM as well.
I alerted you of the above linked post of mine via PM once I posted it on Thursday morning.

I am still waiting for your response today.

作者: 白貓兒 時間: 2007-8-18 15:30

xocat, I have just read about and come to appreciate (undersatnd) your 'bomb' theory more in your response regarding loksiu's case.

Now, I don't mean to 'push'; I await your response to my views on 小潔's case.

[ 本帖最後由白貓兒於 2007-8-18 15:39 編輯 ]

作者: 白貓兒 時間: 2007-8-18 16:13

Maybe you think banning someone necessarily carries a suppressive effect--the one banned will learn a lesson and refrain from repeating the offence if (s)he re-emerges with a new identity (membership). But if the offender considers his/her act actually done out of conscience/ for the good of society (though he/she may not be practically-minded in your eyes), such immediate suppression by killing might lead to resistance in the form of continued disobedience.

I hope we learn to channel all concerns that are not ill-natured into the good of the forum. We need to learn to see things from others' perspectives and assess others' intentions in light of our general understanding of them---one can't change a lot overnight. If one's intention is not ill-natured or something that might bring negative consequences is said in a fit of impulse, I don't think it merits drastic action like a ban.

作者: fighterplane 時間: 2007-8-18 23:41

白貓兄, 請恕小弟才疏學淺,看不明白,
能否用淺白的中文,
讓大家明白你的建議
謝謝

作者: 白貓兒 時間: 2007-8-19 03:27

fighterplane 兄, 因為我打英文快過中文, 趁昨午xocat在此, 我和他在另一條thread進行過一節對話後, 就想爭取時間繼續和他在這條thread裹講. 不過他沒留下.

小潔已說明她是引用了他人不為xocat接受的言論, 不是她自己先寫的. 那麼我上邊的一些意見並不直接和她被banned之事有關. 是整體上的程序問題. 如已有會員質疑過這次風波中沒有forewarning, 我只是將forewarning寫得更形式化實質化.

我不知xocat是否不重視程序問題, 尤其是當中情理問題. 他說他重視evidence, 他也有他審視evidence的一套.

到人問他為何是另一區版主ban小潔, 他說'anyway.' 希望他會交待當中玄秘.

我也不明他為何仍容fairgame存在. 我個人對fairgame言論不置可否, 但是他明言不容該等言論的.

我大概答非盡你所問, 因為倦了, 只作點零碎補充.

作者: xocatII 時間: 2007-8-23 16:46

I think I've solved the problem with 小潔...
that's trivial or minor stuff...

My personal opinion: I think 白貓兒's English is very good, however, I think he should improve his presentation skill so that users and me can clearly understand his requests...

I do appreciate what our users have contributed... but if you break a rule, that's a big stuff.

Pls take some time to see the DVD of "Batman Begins".... Batman said to his master/teacher, "I won't kill you, but I don't have to save you"... Batman indirectly kills the one who has taught him a lot of the skills of fighting... simply because his master intended to destroy the City of Gotham...

作者: xocatII 時間: 2007-8-23 17:07

And the interesting story about Batman Begins is: his master's intention of destroying the City of Gotham is good... he saw the evil and bad stuff of the city... thus Ras Al Ghul (the master) wanted to destroy the "evil" in order to maintain the harmony of the city again... like the act of Noah's Ark... however, we don't agree with this act...

作者: 白貓兒 時間: 2007-8-23 21:23

xocatII, my ideas in the first post on this thread are presented in clear paragraphs. In paragraphs 2 - 4, in particular, I detail my concrete suggestions, supplemented with thoughts in the remaining paragraphs. If you find my presentation generally not conducive to your understanding, forget about it. I am not going to restructure or  rephrase what I have said.

What about these in Chinese from above:

「到人問他為何是另一區版主ban小潔, 他說'anyway.' 希望他會交待當中玄秘.

我也不明他為何仍容fairgame存在. 我個人對fairgame言論不置可否, 但是他明言不容該等言論的.」

You have not responded to these. But I have said I will not press you with further qeries.

Presentation? I think in the course 過程 of explaining to us why you banned the people, your presentation was problematic. First you said you and 'Robin' had been keeping an eye on the group of people for quite some time....By the end you said at a moment of immediate urgency, you could not distinguish your friends from your enemies. I felt very confused.

'if you break a rule, that's a big stuff.'

-----It really depends. If you don't understand what it means by 'weighing', sorry I can't be of further help.

In any case, I now leave you altogether with the state of affairs as it is. I do not expect any substantial crisis in the foreseeable future in how members relate within the forum and with the outside, for many have learned to be 'wiser' and ......indifferent.

I do not expect to speak out again in the future, period.

Thanks.

[ 本帖最後由白貓兒於 2007-8-23 22:23 編輯 ]

作者: 求其 時間: 2007-8-24 18:34

引用:

原帖由 白貓兒 於 2007-8-23 21:23 發表
...for many have learned to be 'wiser' and ......indifferent

learned to be 'wiser', XOCATII should be the frst one to do that
indifferent...唉,经过这许许多多,很多人已变得很indifferent了

作者: 癲巴 時間: 2007-8-25 04:42

提示: 作者被禁止或刪除內容自動屏蔽

作者: 白貓兒 時間: 2007-8-25 21:34

引用:

原帖由求其於 2007-8-24 18:34 發表

learned to be 'wiser', XOCATII should be the frst one to do that
indifferent...唉,经过这许许多多,很多人已变得很indifferent了

and learned to be reticent.

作者: SAS 時間: 2007-8-26 00:33

白貓兄點解唔用中文寫? 你唔想多d人睇到/睇得明你既意見咩?

作者: happycamel 時間: 2007-8-26 01:52

引用:

原帖由 xocatII 於 2007-8-23 16:46 發表
... Pls take some time to see the DVD of "Batman Begins".... Batman said to his master/teacher, "I won't kill you, but I don't have to save you"... Batman indirectly kills the one who has taught him a lot of the skills of fighting... simply because his master intended to destroy the City of Gotham...

Don't get obsessed. This is a real world, don't just do what that Batman did in the film.

不要沉迷。這是現實世界，切勿模仿戲中蝙蝠俠所作所為。

[ 本帖最後由 happycamel 於 2007-8-26 02:01 編輯 ]

作者: SCMP 時間: 2007-9-6 02:44