引用:

原帖由 twiceAweek 於 2012-4-24 11:33 發表
Windsor have now raised the suggested tip for the girls to be at least $150 for 2 sessions

what would you do if you find the girl's skill / strength to be below your expectations ?

also what if you find the BG's performance below average but not so bad that one needs to actually complain ? ...

The problem from Windsor's point of view, which reflects many of the bgs' opinions, is that there are too many customers who are . . . let's see, how to say this . . . uh . . . CHEAP!!     So Windsor is trying to protect the girls' income to some minimum level.  If a customer can't afford the HK$75/session minimum tip, then neither the bgs nor Windsor really want you for a customer!!

I know bgs who've had to deal with repeating customers who would only book them for ONE SESSION, and then would only pay HK$50 tip for that session.  By doing these customers, the bgs were not making any real income while losing their spot in the queue to do a two-session customer who might at least pay HK$100/session tips.  Sort of a double-sting.  So I can sympathise with skilled, hardworking bgs who get bad customers.

But there are bgs at Windsor whose skills aren't worth my time either.  For these girls, I would pay a HK$100/session tip if their skills are in the range of average, but not book them again.  If they are really bad, I will end the session before the second session begins, and pay the minimum tip for the one session.  In these very rare cases, I will make up a reason to leave early.  For such bgs, I may tell 寶文 that the girl was really sub-par, then, if I still have time, re-book another girl.  It will get back to the first bg by one channel (management) or another (second bg) that she wasn't up to par.

Nonetheless, if Windsor is going to set a minimum tip, and raise it over time, then I'd like to see them invest in having a 師傅 test the bgs' skills at the point of hire, and perhaps provide some further checks and ongoing training (at Windsor's expense) where needed; perhaps once a month for the first three months of hire.  Windsor does offer training by a 師傅 if the bgs want it, but the bgs have to pay out of their own pocket for the training, which most bgs understandably decline to do, as it isn't cheap.  I think the price I heard once from a bg was in the neighbourhood of HK$5000.   It would be to the advantage of all (customers, bgs, and Windsor) if Windsor invested in establishing and maintaining a higher standard of bg skill.  After all, Windsor would have us believe that it is a better class of sauna/spa . . .

[ 本帖最後由 observer2012 於 2012-4-25 00:10 編輯 ]

引用:

原帖由 白貓兒 於 2012-4-25 16:07 發表
Regarding cfu teaching underskilled girls,in the past there have been one or two occasions when a veteran cfu was  called upon to teach newly-joined girls on an adhoc basis.

Well, Windsor should get that cfu back on line.  Maybe put her on salary to make it worth her time to help out.  I'd say at least 50% of the current technicians at Windsor need training.  A customer should be able to walk in and expect a better-than-average massage from any assigned technician.  It's pretty much hit-or-miss now.  Given the cost of a massage there, and the caliber of sauna that Windsor wants us to believe it is, this shouldn't be the case.

[ 本帖最後由 observer2012 於 2012-4-26 10:24 編輯 ]

引用:

原帖由 twiceAweek 於 2012-4-25 15:58 發表
how does one tip under these circumstances ?  
$100 per session is not great but not bad either !

$100/session tip for pure veg is fine.  My regular bgs all tell me most girls are quite happy to get $100/session tips.  So if a bg, in the regular line of vegan duty, complains that $100/session is "cheap", and talks about this all during the massage, you can complain to 寶文 or at the front desk on your way out.  But don't do this lightly; Windsor does punish bgs who whine for tips.  These girls can be taken out of the customer queue for days or even weeks, and must then rely solely on direct customer bookings for their income during that time.

Now if your friend was pushing for VAS, many bgs do make it clear that $100/session is below market.  If this was the case (or is the case, should that be the case for all you VAS cases ), then please don't complain to management that the girl was whining about tips.  Ideally, a girl should state her price just once, and the customer should either put up or shut up at that point.  If she doesn't stop talking about tips because the customer won't stop requesting something extra, then you've both put commerce ahead of atmosphere and get what you deserve.

Again, complain to management only for situations that are pure veg in nature.

[ 本帖最後由 observer2012 於 2012-4-26 10:28 編輯 ]

引用:

原帖由 twiceAweek 於 2012-4-25 15:58 發表
everything was well until the middle of the 2nd session when she started to talk about how much tips other clients gives her and how the ones that only gives $100 per session are cheap ...

I'm cueing into "everything was well until the middle of the 2nd session", which suggests that "something popped up" at that point to warrant the ongoing monologue on tips.  You may want to check with your friend about this, just to put that customer's grumble into proper context.

When "things pop up", many bgs at Windsor see an income opportunity, and can be a bit 硬銷.   As discusssed previously, more bgs seem to be more aggressive about offering VAS now, which is pushing Windsor closer to the open airport category among HK saunas.

引用:

原帖由 twiceAweek 於 2012-4-26 12:38 發表
so back to my question - if a client only wants a massage (no VAS) and he got a poor massage because the girl is unable to give one ... is it justified for Windsor to raise the minimum tip when the level of their BGs drop ?

Ideally, in a fair market, if the bg is no good she should expect to forego any tips (and know the reason why).  But the market isn't really fair.  Many (and I do mean many) customers try to pay as little as possible when they have no loyalty to the bg and there is no one looking over their shoulder to call them cheap.  If there was no minimum tip, I believe too many customers would not pay any tip at all.  As I know you know (and most of us should know), bgs survive only on the tips they can earn.  Not paying a bg a decent tip for service well-provided is sort of like spitting in her face.  

For good veggie, $100/session is the standard tip, and most bgs are happy with that.  That's really not a lot of money to pay for coming away feeling much better than when you went in.  Assuming 2 sessions per customer. if a bg can do two to three customers a day, she comes away with only about $520 to $780 for her hard work (assume $40/session "wages" + $90/session tip after Windsor takes 10%).  Could we support a family on that income?  Not easily.  But many bgs do (themselves, parents and/or kids).

I say all of the above only to re-inforce what you and others have told brothers here many times.  Tipping always seems to be an issue in this forum, and the fact that tips are the major source of income for bgs in veggie saunas needs to be repeatedly made clear.

To answer your posed question on how to convey dissatifaction with a bg in the context of Windsor's rising minimum tip, all I can say is to complain "nicely" to management that the bg you experienced wasn't really good.  I find 寶文 to be quite receptive to constructive criticism about the bgs and the sauna.  He can and does talk to the girls, and I assume he can and does talk to the bosses if he sees something wrong in the business operation.

I don't think complaining about specific bg's lack of skills at the front desk presently does much good, as I don't think desk staff are trained to handle such complaints/reporting.  But we can pose the question at the front desk about the minimum tip really being required if the bg's service really isn't good at all (e.g., "Do I have to pay the minimum tip if the bg's massage is really bad?").  If enough of us asked this question rhetorically at payment time, I'm sure someone would eventurally take notice that customers want a channel of communication with both the sauna management and the bgs that we expect a minimum standard of skill before a tip is handed over.  We could all try this, right?

[ 本帖最後由 observer2012 於 2012-4-26 15:28 編輯 ]

引用:

原帖由 twiceAweek 於 2012-4-26 16:07 發表
You're so right about the market not being fair, nor can it be fair, given the way the sauna scene works in HK.Airport saunas have no tipping system - is that fairer for the BGs ? I'm not sure ...

Seems this got edited out . . . But I'd like to respond to it.  I don't think any compensation arrangement is unfair if the bg knows in advance what she's agreeing to and what she's getting in return for giving her time and service.  Airports generally pay a higher hourly "wage" than veggie places in exchange for the uncertainty of tip income.  Some girls prefer this.  Others do not.

However, I would offer that customers, by choosing which type of sauna they visit, also agree to support the compensation terms for the bgs of that particular sauna.  For Windsor and other veggie places, that means paying a fair tip.

引用:

原帖由 左擁右抱 於 2012-4-26 16:27 發表
各位師兄

代支都要講得長篇過人, 還要英文版,
幫幫忙, 講番中文版好嗎？

C'mon!  It's good practice for you!    More interesting than reading an English textbook!!   

[ 本帖最後由 observer2012 於 2012-4-26 17:02 編輯 ]

引用:

原帖由 twiceAweek 於 2012-4-26 16:57 發表

good ... in fact, excellent ... more then excellent !

I hope they read with care on what we have written in the past few days ... I hope they understand that we are long time clients and we a ...

Agree that management would benefit from reading this!  

(so would Carmanlam's gf!!)  

引用:

原帖由 twiceAweek 於 2012-4-26 17:07 發表

Absolutely !  that's what we all should do while working within the system of each establishment (though in real life, some do complain even though they have to work in the system)

what I'm try ...

Sea Crest Sauna (海怡桑拿), primarily a veggie place, has a fixed price system.  Bgs get a higher hourly wage (comparable to an airport rate).  I know one girl working there who's worked at most veggie saunas over the years.  She returned to work there, preferring their fixed-rate compensation system to a tip system.  Sea Crest also has fewer girls on queue, so she gets more walk-in customers there than compared to working elsewhere.

What is important to her, and to most girls in this business, is constant, predictable income.  This means a good balance between regular customers (regular bookings) and walk-ins.  The problem for Windsor bgs is that there are too many bgs in the queue, so income is not so reliable.  I hope Windsor can stablize this situation for their bgs.  This is one of the main messages I hope Windsor management can get from this thread.

[ 本帖最後由 observer2012 於 2012-4-26 19:15 編輯 ]

引用:

原帖由 twiceAweek 於 2012-4-26 17:47 發表

Interesting ...

do you still go there at all ?  reason I ask is do you know if they still "reuse" used towels by just drying them instead of washing ? many years ago I went there ... the 2nd or ...

Never heard of or saw this!  It's been probably three years since I was there last.  The place is a bit run down, for sure; a consequence of catering to the budget market.

引用:

原帖由 observer2012 於 2012-4-26 17:38 發表 ...

The problem for Windsor bgs is that there are too many bgs in the queue, so income is not so reliable.  I hope Windsor can stablize this situation for their bgs.  This is one of the main messages I hope Windsor management can get from this thread.

The other main messages are: (1) hire for, or train for, and maintain an above-average skill level for most, if not all, bgs, and (2) don't let the sauna become an open airport.

[ 本帖最後由 observer2012 於 2012-4-26 19:16 編輯 ]

引用:

原帖由 dssdsdwsdw 於 2012-4-26 19:56 發表
初初我想他們仍想以正骨打正旗號，問題是十個客人，有多少是女賓，有多少是真真正正的骨精。客人不是要求大師父，後生服務好，細細力R下R下，已可有大量嘜單。
當愈滿足志不在此的客人要求，愈不理房內情況，愈加入 ...

你談到的可能百分之百對。兩位我最喜歡的技師已走了。如我其餘最喜歡的也走了，我就跟著她們走，不回來。

引用:

原帖由 twiceAweek 於 2012-4-27 14:53 發表
One thing I never truely understood ... there are many more airport joints then veggie, why don't these people visit these places instead of going to a veggie sauna and hoping to get lucky ?  

When they go to an open airport, everyone knows why they're there.     When they go to a Windsor, they can claim they're going to get a "pure massage".  Plausible deniablity!!      Many chings are afraid to be seen in an open airport, lest they be known as the 流氓 that they really are!  

引用:

原帖由 twiceAweek 於 2012-4-27 15:30 發表

I'm not too sure if that is the main reason ... but if it is, they are ruining it for themselves as sooner or later the place will loose its non veggie sauna status !

Or become an open airport . . .

(Then where will they go?? )

引用:

原帖由 twiceAweek 於 2012-4-27 15:41 發表

unfortunately they wouldn't care ... where as we do (about remaining essentially a veggie sauna)

Actually, I think there are quite a few customers who do care about Windsor staying veggie.  They just don't burn time on a forum looking to find GFE.  (Most already have GFs, or are too old to care! )

引用:

原帖由 twiceAweek 於 2012-4-27 18:47 發表

airport clients are are not long term clients !  

The BGs certainly know this!

引用:

原帖由 dssdsdwsdw 於 2012-4-27 19:05 發表
正骨友會是念舊的忠心客（是對個別技師忠心）
但咸濕客數量多，只要多新血，他們一樣對這場忠心，看看大把人只會試新女。

I really think there are more loyal 正骨 customers (to specific skilled BGs) than this forum would lead you to believe.  They just aren't represented here (because they really have no need to come here).  Count the number of total posters in this thread over all these pages; there really aren't that many different individuals; in all just a small percentage of the customers that regularly go to Windsor (and some are not that regular!).

And keep in mind that "birds of a feather flock together".  The like-mindedness of many the posters here does not mean the majority of Windsor's customers are all of the same mind.

引用:

原帖由 dssdsdwsdw 於 2012-4-27 19:18 發表
正骨暗機場：
-每個男人心中總愛偷的感覺，愈違規愈刺激
-可以令一個正骨女幫妳起機，有成功感
-方便，一次做齊所有事情，只須加多一二百元，好過去完機場再去正骨場，消費時間更多
-好多人認為正骨女乾凈點
- ...

Can it be that so many chings don't have any sex life outside of this sauna??

引用:

原帖由 dssdsdwsdw 於 2012-4-27 19:36 發表
薀莎客人普遍年齡由四尾至五尾。你認為代表甚麼？

So what you're suggesting is that these age groups in Hong Kong, or at least those going to Windsor, couldn't get a girl to touch them unless they pay for it??

引用:

原帖由 Chinapus 於 2012-4-28 08:18 發表
3. From feeling or wanting a 'date' -- what some describe as gf feel, as one try to play the feeling game in vegi sauna while in the plane sauna that is already given or too commercial ...

OK, let's get this on the table . . . What exactly is "GF Feel" all about?  What do you customers expect the girls to do, or hope the girls will do, to give you this feeling?  

Any bro can feel free to answer here.

引用:

原帖由 白貓兒 於 2012-4-30 08:01 發表
And you are the one who refers to the subject of GFE most.
...

So, then, Carmanlam, why don't you tell us what GFE is and why it's so important to you when visiting technicians at Windsor?

引用:

原帖由 hahadad 於 2012-5-2 00:24 發表
For tips, if 1 to 1 , ie. $100 for 45 min and $200 for 90 mn..  If a bg is doing 5 customers , i.e 7.5  hours per day. she will get $1,000.- on tips per day. Working 25 days , meaning $25,000.- pe month. Not bad eh !   ...

Brother dssdsdwsdw is correct, most girls are lucky to get two or three customers a day.  Many only get one.  And some, some days, get none.  Tips and hours have generally gotten worse for most girls in the past year.  So more and more experienced girls (e.g., those that can do a good massage) are thinking of moving elsewhere.

引用:

原帖由 twiceAweek 於 2012-5-2 12:37 發表
I don't think you and others are understanding the point ... what I am saying is the the quality of the massage skill from the BGs Windsor is now hiring is dropping ! what you are saying i ...

Indeed, Windsor is dropping its standards.  Perhaps there just aren't any capable bgs out there to hire anymore?  Any warm body will now do?

I'm still not convinced there is a need for Windsor to drop its standards in order to find more bgs to sit in the queue.  Any chance we could hear from management on this??

I talked to a couple of my regular girls about the subject of GFE (since no bros here have any balls to put that topic on the table).  They showed me some of the SMSs and Whatsapp messages they get from some of their Windsor customers.  My god.  Some of you guys are really in the deep end!  Do you not realise that you are paying these girls money???

引用:

原帖由 白貓兒 於 2012-5-2 16:05 發表
Regarding your question at the end
you could speak to them directly,
when presumably some of them are reading
you here.

Speak to them directly in this forum?  I think it would be good if someone from management joined us here!  (Consider that a direct request to Windsor management!)