有d人知d唔知d就大大聲要求學外國最低工資,
人家最低工資是和社福失業金掛勾保障嘅,
未攪好社福失業保障就強行最低工資,
咁將會是中年和低文化水平想就業一個惡夢,
工棍以最低工資借口為商家來一次大清洗行動,
就如舊電話公司轉電盈之一次翻版.

工棍真好0野,手段又成功啦!!!!

引用:

原帖由 kcpw0n 於 2008-10-13 16:54 發表
有d人知d唔知d就大大聲要求學外國最低工資,
人家最低工資是和社福失業金掛勾保障嘅,
未攪好社福失業保障就強行最低工資,
咁將會是中年和低文化水平想就業一個惡夢,
工棍以最低工資借口為商家來一次大清洗行 ...

I have to inform you that your beloved commies in PRC also practice min wage policy...

引用:

原帖由 Rubber 於 2008-10-12 11:09 發表
Some reports about the effect of minimum wage ordinance :
In UK and USA, the findings have been
1/  There has " no measurable adverse effect on employment or inflation."
2/  No obvious incentive fo ...

in that case, is there equal "positive" effect on employment or inflation?  i see this as merely a play on words, propaganda if you will.  pay raise for minimum wagers will only promote the deterioration of incentive to work harder, and not the other way around.  as someone else have mentioned, minimum wage should be related to the amount of social benefits and welfare of the community we live in(aka HK), however, HK workers and business owners' ethics are vastly different than North America or even the UK, and we cannot use the same standards as they do.  It's difficult to determine what should or should not be done in Hong Kong to improve living standards for minimum wagers, but some people here blindly expecting minimum wages to raise because other countries do is merely selfish thinking, and no different than the bosses they work for.  If someone spends as much time whining here as they do working, perhaps they won't be a part of the minimum wager's group.  It's too bad there are so many biased viewpoints from the likes of Ho Ting, who can't accept any other's viewpoints but his own.

引用:

原帖由 moxfactor 於 2008-10-13 18:18 發表


in that case, is there equal "positive" effect on employment or inflation?  i see this as merely a play on words, propaganda if you will.  pay raise for minimum wagers will only promote the deteri ...

That is not mutually exclusive, increases in wages does not necessarily means lowering the profit.
The report findings included that there are more revenue generated in the premises by the more loyal and happy workers.
A more positive approach is one seeking for reduction in rent and other costs to offset the increase in wages.

引用:

原帖由 Rubber 於 2008-10-13 17:51 發表
I have to inform you that your beloved commies in PRC also practice min wage policy...

So now people are better off!

引用:

原帖由 moxfactor 於 2008-10-13 18:18 發表
in that case, is there equal "positive" effect on employment or inflation?  i see this as merely a play on words, propaganda if you will.  pay raise for minimum wagers will only promote the deteri ...

Yes, happy and more productive.

引用:

原帖由 devilsadvocate 於 2008-10-12 21:49 發表
有最低工資，清潔工每個月收$6864。
咁「科文」要收幾錢？經理又要收幾錢？
如果茶餐廳冼碗每個月收$6864。
咁「伙計」要收幾錢？老闆又有無錢賺？
一個辦公室助理每個月收$6864。
一個無經驗�鴾冗Е朵~生做文員 ...

It means wages system are forced to reform.

引用:

原帖由 peninsula 於 2008-10-13 21:15 發表

Yes, happy and more productive.

But loyalty and happiness are not easy to measure.
It seems they are luxury to many owners of SME

引用:

原帖由 public59 於 2008-10-14 21:18 發表
But loyalty and happiness are not easy to measure.
It seems they are luxury to many owners of SME

Yes, very subjective indeed.

引用:

原帖由 moxfactor 於 2008-10-13 18:18 發表


in that case, is there equal "positive" effect on employment or inflation?  i see this as merely a play on words, propaganda if you will.  pay raise for minimum wagers will only promote the deteri ...

Mox, I am sure you're well aware of the fact that almost all nations across the globe place economy as their top priorities.  

Economic used to be simpler, how we compete for limited resources, supply, demand, markets. It's an competition game.  The thing with this game is that the winner will do pretty well, but the weak, unwanted, will get eliminated.  They have a system for this game; it's called "Free Market". Do you still carry a cassette walker around? Well, it's pretty close to be eliminated.  Likewise for the cassette industry, and the work force that specialize in it.

We are never borne equal; some are always faster, smarter, work harder, mouth with a silver spoon.  Again, they will do well.  But for the folks at the other end, this competition game, this system of free market, how this economy works just doesn't add up.  It's beyond right or wrong, it's about the nations' stability and viability.  Governments have the power to redistribute wealth, to balance out the equation of this game.  And there will be trade off, consequences.  Thus, how are we going to do this?

Mandatory minimum wages is neither entirely good nor bad.  It's a mean, a tool, a measure.  And there is time we would need to use this tool.  We all build our nations based on competition, and we will be distorting the system to a different model as the government step in.  That's why, hopefully, someone who knows what he/she is talking about could answer for Hong Kong.

e個問題真係好難講，從純理性角度睇，定下最低工資，實會谷高一ｄ邊緣企業的成本，迫使佢地結業，再使一班人失業，最後可能好心做壞事。
再講，呢個市場係會自行調節的，有讀經濟都知，從整個經濟睇，你有幾多能力，可以為僱主帶來多少利益，僱主自然會出到足夠的人工比你，如果個僱主出唔足你能力上應得的錢，你好自然會走，因為出面仲有大把僱主會出得起錢。你的人工會好自然反影你的能力。（呢個係整個經濟宏觀咁睇，從微觀睇當然會有不少個別事例，你唔好攞呢ｄ特例挑戰我）
個人管理經驗我真係睇到，有啲人的質素真係唔值幾多錢，我做零售管理，請人做前線，有ｄ人怕羞，有ｄ唔識講說話，有ｄ懶到出汁，返工目光呆滯，做唔到數，唔炒佢唔得。有啲人又真係只適合做吓快餐服務員、清潔，只要求手腳移動做嘢，完全沒有技術可言（除非你話換汽水糖漿都叫技術）。

我個人認為最低工資唔係好事，但係另一方面睇，呢一班低技術人士都要食飯，睇見有ｄ人為兩餐，一日打兩份工，命都可以唔要，一日開十幾個鐘（雖然我開工時間都唔嘢少），你冇最低工資保障，佢哋確係幾大煲。

引用:

原帖由 peninsula 於 2008-10-13 21:14 發表

So now people are better off!

七萬廠家倒閉2000萬人被炒

在國際金融海嘯的巨浪衝擊下，有「世界工廠」之稱的中國亦遭重創。美聯社、美國有線新聞網絡（CNN ）報道，金融海嘯令歐美等國對玩具、日常用品的需求量勁減，外國廠商紛「撻訂」，中國各廠房損失慘重，國內進出口受衝擊，中國將引發工廠倒閉潮。國家發改委早前已透露，今年上半年內地已有近七萬家中小企業倒閉，逾二千萬人被解僱，中小企業面臨前所未有的困難。
在全球經濟持續低迷的形勢下，中國的出口出現疲弱。中國海關的數據顯示，中國今年第一季的出口增長下降，為三年來首次。而中國家用電器協會的數據顯示，中國電風扇七月的外銷量較去年同期下降百分之廿一。每年出口六百萬把風扇往外地的順德雄風電器表示，擔心外國客戶會因資金短缺而倒閉。
首七月逾半玩具企業關門
海關數字亦指，今年一至七月，中國具有玩具出口的企業為三千五百多家，較去年同期減少達五成二，也就是說逾半中國玩具出口企業今年已倒閉。
國家發改委中小企業司八月已透露，今年相當部分中小企業面臨資金鏈斷裂等困難。據初步統計，全國今年上半年有六萬七千家中小企業倒閉，導致逾二千萬工人被解聘，當中逾一萬家為紡織業中小企。
中國最大服裝商之一的浙江江龍紡織印染上周被迫倒閉。擁有一百名員工的天津紡織進出口公司，其經理楊先生表示，預計今年的銷售額會較去年大跌一半，若果情況持續惡化，不排除會裁員。
在金融海嘯下，作為中國外貿出口「晴雨表」的中國廣州進出口商品交易會昨首日開幕亦遇冷。不少企業均表示，由於聖誕節後歐美市場都會減少需求，預計本屆廣交會，製造業的成交額最少減少三成。
廣交會揭幕成交料減30 ％
在廣州生產擴音器的美國商人理查森（Richardson ）表示，過去兩星期，美國的定單已減少逾半，其十二名客戶中，有九人取消來穗與其洽談生意。中國商務部發言人姚申洪亦承認，中國加工貿易出口形勢嚴峻，全球經濟下行風險對中國對外貿易影響正不斷顯現。
另外，第一百零四屆廣交會昨日開幕，發改委對外經濟研究所所長張燕生說，全球金融動盪尚未結束，很可能對中國出口造成影響。一名來自杜拜的進口商表示，自己參加了近十次廣交會，以往每次均會簽下至少數百萬美元長期出口定單。由於明年初消費市場不明朗，這次參會將主要以短期定單為主。

Orinetal News, A35

其實睇下d數據, 跟本響金融爆褒前, d中小企業已經出咗事.

一般物料升幅為30%, "執行"基本最低工資, (深圳二線為例), 由往年12月$600, 加到1月750. 今年七月去到$900, 跟據勞動局, 以後每年仲要定年加15%.  叫d中小企業點頂?

d公司出事, 對工人, 對社會係咪好事?  工人也好, 老細也好, 無左競爭力, 就要比市場搞掂.  現實就係咁既一回事, 做野要睇大時大勢, 然後諗清諗楚.  先出手.  

希望 now people are better off.

引用:

原帖由 Rainybreeze 於 2008-10-16 16:28 發表


七萬廠家倒閉2000萬人被炒  ...

That's not to do with wage policies.

引用:

原帖由 Rainybreeze 於 2008-10-16 04:28 PM 發表


七萬廠家倒閉2000萬人被炒

在國際金融海嘯的巨浪衝擊下，有「世界工廠」之稱的中國亦遭重創。美聯社、美國有線新聞網絡（CNN ）報道，金融海嘯令歐美等國對玩具、日常用品的需求量勁減，外國廠商紛「撻訂」 ...

仲有好多工廠依家唔加得班, 週日, 假期全部放足有多冇少, 產量下降, 交貨期廷長, 成本難以負擔, 最終企業又是捱不住.

都好既  香港有d老闆好喜歡刻薄員工
好處:保障員工是好事
壞處:失業率上升

[ 本帖最後由 DIY555 於 2008-10-17 01:45 編輯 ]

引用:

原帖由 Rainybreeze 於 2008-10-14 23:01 發表
Mandatory minimum wages is neither entirely good nor bad.  It's a mean,a tool, a measure.  And there is time we would need to use thistool.  We all build our nations based on competition, and we will bedistorting the system to a different model as the government stepin.  That's why, hopefully, someone who knows what he/she is talkingabout could answer for Hong Kong.

i disagree.  mandatory minimum wages in HK i don't believe will be a good thing.  it might work elsewhere, but unless with other steps involved, including social benefits and more income tax.  so many others on this post only see higher income = better productivity leading to better general economy.  sorry, but that's not so simple, and especially not in Hong Kong where everything is as you say, competitive.  minimum wage will only force companies to cut down employees with less future on a guess.  it will make other employees less efficient because there is less incentive to work harder, because mandatory minimum wage is only for the bottom of the barrel.  it will also force many older and handicapped people into early retirement because companies will refuse to hire them because hiring someone younger will be the same price.  we're talking older as in 45 being replaced by a 25 yr old.  not even getting to the 60+.  unless the social groundwork is rebuilt to fit more western civilization work ethics, including social education, there is no way this will work for the better in Hong Kong.  if this passes, it will cause chaos in the overall workforce in Hong Kong.  i don't believe it will never work in Hong Kong, just that now is too early because there's no foundation for this.  so unless the ulterior motive is to drive away all the mainlander immigrants and force older people to live off social welfare, there is no justification to the overall economics of Hong Kong to establish a mandatory minimum wage.

最低工資問題喺香港根本就唔再係經濟問題
變成純粹 " 政治問題 "
以一個反智又民粹社會
無論煲呔定邊個做特首都頂唔住/ 無謂去頂班九流 政客
港燦鼠目寸光又智商低
餐餐水浸眼尾都未識死
自作孽, 不可活   

金融海嘯狂潮未去,世界不景氣將臨,
政客仍不斷要攪最低工資立法,
簡直就係本末倒置,
現正是時候僱主和僱員準備共渡時艱,
市面巳經有大型連鎖零售店倒閉啦!!!!!
重要攪最低工資,
準備食西北風啦!!!!

引用:

原帖由 peninsula 於 2008-10-16 21:11 發表

That's not to do with wage policies.

But it is not the right time to set the min wage policies.
It is the time how to tackle the downturn economy for both employer and employee.

經濟環境好嘅時候政棍無得玩0野,
世界經濟大環境轉差,佢地就把握時間做騷,
睇住0黎會愈攪愈出屎.
泛民大聲嗌~~~
信者得救,實行打救你

宜家個問題係出於勞工界果班人只係一味從勞工、基層既角度去睇，根本忽略左社會整體既利益，等如「生果金」打算加一千蚊要兩次資產審查一樣，使社會更加分化。請記住，身為立法會議員唔係只顧短視，更加需要既，就係要顧及香港整體既利益呀！

請「職工盟」、「街工」同「工聯會」聽下啦好嗎？

引用:

原帖由 kcpw0n 於 2008-10-17 07:10 PM 發表
金融海嘯狂潮未去,世界不景氣將臨,
政客仍不斷要攪最低工資立法,
簡直就係本末倒置,
現正是時候僱主和僱員準備共渡時艱,
市面巳經有大型連鎖零售店倒閉啦!!!!!
重要攪最低工資,
準備食西北風啦!!!!

泰林清盤13店全結業
(明報)10月17日 星期五 23:25

繼連鎖集團U-Right上周被清盤後，有62年歷史的泰林無線電行在金融海嘯下今日全線結業，影響260名員工。
泰林在各區的13間分店下午開始拉下大閘關門，門外貼了進行盤點的告示，有臨時清盤人到場。泰林約有260多名全職及兼職員工。
有供應商表示，他們在中午收到消息，泰林將清盤，所以到來收回貨物及貨款。
高院已委出安永企業財務為臨時清盤人，清盤人表示，泰林淨欠債約1億元，泰林已向員工發放九月的薪金，正了解有沒有流動資金支付十月薪金，他們亦會設法與潛在買家商討出售事宜。
在上周，U-Right突然被申請清盤，400名員工的薪金被拖欠，涉及約100萬元。清盤人承諾11月3日前繳付10月份工資及代通知金，亦會交代遣散費安排。
工聯會立法會議員黃國健說，對事件表示震驚，失業率可能會上升，金融海嘯已影響了零售業，相信在農曆年過後，會有更多店舖結業，特別是食肆。
泰林成立於1946年，公司在開業初期，以修理及買賣收音機為主要業務，其後業務範圍不斷擴大，售賣不同的電器產品。

引用:

原帖由 bobbystar2100 於 2008-10-18 02:03 AM 發表
宜家個問題係出於勞工界果班人只係一味從勞工、基層既角度去睇，根本忽略左社會整體既利益，等如「生果金」打算加一千蚊要兩次資產審查一樣，使社會更加分化。請記住，身為立法會議員唔係只顧短視，更加需要既，就係 ...

直選議員為選票出賣香港社會整體利益, 一面倒只為基層發聲, 中產變成社會上只有貢獻卻是最無助的一群, 所謂"民主"社會的選舉制度存在如此漏洞及矛盾, 不禁懷念港英政府時代, 政府決策之果斷, 不如今日每天受政棍們別有居心的指控變得軟弱無力舉步維艱. 民選議員原意之一是代市民起監察政府之效, 但如果監察偏向某階層利益而忽略整體發展及長遠考慮, 以至以反政府(為反而反)為主流, 只會損害香港潛在的前景, 到頭來一起捱窮.

誰才是今次金融海嘯之苦主呢,
是貪高息之雷曼投資者嗎?
還是香港中小企營運者
其實是香港中小企營運者吧!!!
他們誠誠懇懇為香港創造經濟環境!!!
但因金融海嘯銀行收緊信貸而面臨倒閉!!!
可惜香港之政棍們還落井下石,
揮動他們手上之攪屎棍,攪什麼勞工福利主義,加重中小企之負擔,唯恐香港不死!!!
僱員和僱主們,清醒吧!!!
共渡時艱才是自救嘅大方向!!!!!

[ 本帖最後由 kcpw0n 於 2008-10-18 16:36 編輯 ]

【明報專訊】現行的中小企援助計劃貸款保證分為兩種﹕為廠商購買機器、設備的貸款保證上限為500萬元，有機器作為抵押；而無抵押的營運貸款保證則只有100萬元。
有業界人士指出，中小企購買設備的需求其實極低，若需貸款，一般為應急，100萬元作用有限。今次政府將貸款保證二合為一，能夠回應中小企面對的問題，不過，亦變相增加政府的無抵押貸款保證，一旦更多企業未能還款，政府面對的包底風險將會更高。
根據商務及經濟發展局呈交立法會的文件，而去年計劃的壞帳率，就只有約2.7%。

綜合一些數據,政府在於協助中小企方面亦有一定幫助,或許在金融海嘯下動力不夠,但總比一些泛民政棍只懂大聲9up而毫無建議解決,甚至有些掟蕉做騷或另類攪倒米要求最低工資立法令中小企百上加斤制造更多倒閉和工人失業.