Thank you for the detailed and expert information on finding the lots from the existing government departments.  

Attached is the sale of land for Rennie's mills in early 1905.  There are some interesting points which require your expert explanation:
1. Why there are different types of lots on the list ? Why these land not started with NKIL as they were in the new kowloon boundary since 1899 ?

2. The place name "Cheung Kwan O" has been in use  rather than "Junk Bay".  People always claimed that "Junk Bay" is the only English name during this time but this proves wrong.

3. There is a detailed measurement of the 4 directions. This is quite different from other land auction notices.

4. Do you think that the money for buying these lands is rather cheap as they are sold in one lot for 75 years and is renewable for another 75 years ?

5. The condition of sale is rather quite detailed and this is also quite a different practice from other land auction notices.

[ ¥»©«³Ì«á¥Ñ kintsun ©ó 2009-6-25 03:36 ½s¿è ]

Thanks, Brother Kintsun. This is one of the very first New Territories public auctions (doesn't look like the later "restricted" public auction and I must presume that it is a true public auction. Due to its pre-mature nature, I also cast doubts as to its legality - especially to the terms of the sale. The normal lease in the NT is 99 years from 1 July 1898 less the last 3 days and that aligns with the 99 years NT lease unilaterally recognised by the British. That being the case, the 75 + 75 years lease (common in Kowloon area south of Boundary Street only) extend beyond 1997 and the British Government has no legal authority to grant such lease. So whether the auction has actually taken place is something of interest and worths further investigation.
1. Why there are different types of lots on the list ? Why these land not started with NKIL as they were in the new kowloon boundary since 1899 ?
(My view: The different types of lots covers a variety of nature of subdivided parcels of land in the area. Marine lot is on the sea, or areas that needs to be reclaimed; Farm lot refers to "agricultural land" where no buildings can be allowed, while Inland lot fall on land formed or to be formed by excavation, and I noticed that marine access is granted to one of these inland lots. I have doubts (to be clarified under Sch 5 of Cap. 1) whether these lots fall within the boundaries of "New Kowloon" or "New Territories", but it doesn't really affect the term (99 years, or more accurately 75 + 24 years). In my view, they should be part of NT, where special indiginous rights under the N. T. Ordinance exists.)

2. The place name "Cheung Kwan O" has been in use  rather than "Junk Bay".  People always claimed that "Junk Bay" is the only English name during this time but this proves wrong. (My view: You are absolutely right - misunderstandings by some people)

3. There is a detailed measurement of the 4 directions. This is quite different from other land auction notices. (My view: This is not uncommon and follows the practice of other earlier HK Island / Kowloon auctions. The dimensions were roughly taken from the Sales Plan. In later sales, the detaled dimensions were replaced for simplicity sake as " refer to the plan deposited at District Office, South)

4. Do you think that the money for buying these lands is rather cheap as they are sold in one lot for 75 years and is renewable for another 75 years ? (My view: Yes, it is much lower than the rule in setting an upset price at that tiime -1 cent per square foot for building land and 0.25-0.75 cents per square foot of agricultural land. I'm not sure what led to such low upset price. It could be requirements to form the land, to construct public facilities, or simply, the practice was not established at that time and the sale was merely a test case.)

5. The condition of sale is rather quite detailed and this is also quite a different practice from other land auction notices. (Sorry that I cannot agree that the conditions were complicated. It is regarded as "simple" as by 1905 a standard set of sales conditions were yet to be worked out by Government. For these New Grant lots, Government published in the Gazette from time to time new / revised conditions that governs the sale of land. The more comprehensive G.N. 365 of 1906 was then yet to be published.)

I welcome further discussions on the origin of these lots. Nevertheless, we should try to refocus on Rennie's NKIL 31 - this has also aroused my interest as well.

Re : 302  

Rennie's NKIL 31 - this has also aroused my interest as well.

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As being a chartered surveyor (MRICS or ARICS) , I think you should know the English Land Lease System and Deed System.

Only private land would have been awarded with either lease hold or free hold. Only one private property in Hong Kong was awarded as free hold in one dollar term. Do you know where it is?

Other government properties and facilities (castle) will have no period limitation as it was exempted from laws (previous namely Exemption Ordinance).

If the so called "castle" had the lease and land mark, it will not be a castle logically. No private castle was allowed in Hong Kong Colony according to previous letter of patent.

[ ¥»©«³Ì«á¥Ñ ¦Ë¶éBB ©ó 2009-6-26 02:49 ½s¿è ]

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Hi, Brother Dorothytiffany, quite impressed with the expert knowledge you displayed in explaining the questions I raised.  They help me a lot in understanding and uncovering the misty pictures of the Mau Wu castle-like structure and the story of the Rennie's Mills.  Many misunderstandings of the said premises could be clarified:

1. The year the Rennie's Mills came into existence and operated was at the end of 1906.  Many people claimed that it was in 1905 or even in 1904.
The evidence:
January 1905  --  the 7 lots for Rennie's mills put up for auction (mentioned in earlier posts)
November 1905  -- another farm lease lot no 2 adjacent to lot no 1 was put up for auction



The nature of such auction sale was perhaps as Brother Dorothytiffany said a "premature" one so it had contradicted with the 1899 treaty with the term of 99 years lease of NT to Britain.  The sale of 7 lots including different types of usage also implied that these lands were tailor made for some body who would invest on a big business good for the territory.  It is no wonder Brother Dorothytiffany doubted that the auction has really taken place or not.

The Nathan report 1905 to the Lord had the clues for this tailor-made arrangement.  It was said that the development of a flour mill in Junk Bay would help the prosperity of HK in solving the bad effects brought by the Russo-Japanese War (1904-1905). HK was losing the benefits of entrepot trade.   Therefore the upset price for these lands was cheap as pointed by Brother Dorothytiffany's calculation.  



With high aspiration for this new industry in Hong Kong, Nathan always paid attention to its completion.  The 1906 report again revealed the near completion of the flour mills by the end of 1906.  



This was reiternated in the Public Works Department report in 1906 that the farm land lease lot was connected with the Rennie's mills. Its purpose was for rearing pigs to consume the millfeed - endproducts of flouring milling.



2. Rennie's Mills was demolished in 1934 rather than at a later date after the 2nd World War.  It was always  rumoured that the mills was used as a British defence point against the Japanese during WWII.  And the Japanese after occupying it during WWII also used it as  a defence post too.  This is rather ridiculous.  If the structure of the mills was demolished, it would become a flat land and nothing left for any defence purpose!  The following scraps from the HK Gazette prove it:

Buying the Rennie's mills back first in 1925:


Demolishing it in 1934:


Thank you  Brother Dorothytiffany in helping me to uncover the mysteries and clarifying some misunderstandings around the Tiu Keng Leng historical remains.  Also thanks due to Brother Ho and Brother Micheung for arousing my interest in the history of Tiu Keng Leng.  The mystery of NKIL no. 31 should be dealt with and would be my focus of research.  

Bother ¦Ë¶éBB, thanks for your knowledge in both civil engineering and land surveying.  The Mau Wu structure should not be understood as a real castle.  It was in fact just a castle-like structure.  Its purpose has been disucssed in earlier posts.

[ ¥»©«³Ì«á¥Ñ kintsun ©ó 2009-6-26 11:45 ½s¿è ]

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Hi, Brother Dorothytiffany, quite impressed with the expert knowledge you displayed in explaining the questions I raised.  They help me a lot in underst ...

We have had quite a fruitful 'chat' here about the history of Rennies' Mill, Junk Bay and the 'castle' with all the valuable input from the experts like Dorothytiffany, ¦Ë¶é  BB .....  But I am just curious, Brother Kintsun, ......  that if there are any special reasons, personal or sentimental, that you want to dig into the details of the historical background of this place ?      

Hi, Brother Tiutiu111, thanks for reading  the chat between us.  The forces behind me for digging into the stories of these places are:

1. Attracting more people to understand the correct history of these historical spots seems a  mission for me.  I don't like the misunderstandings around these spots spread everyday.

2. The Mau Wu castle-like structure and the story of Rennie's Mills are interesting to me as they can be touched and seen.  There are still many historical documents concerning Alfred Herbert Rennie that we can explore today.  The story is just 100 years away.  We can feel and touch it!

3. It is a wonderful feeling when  the misty picture of these places and people was unveiled in front of you.  It seems that Alfred Herbert Rennie and his fellow engineers and workers standing in front of you and looking at you,

[ ¥»©«³Ì«á¥Ñ kintsun ©ó 2009-6-27 02:36 ½s¿è ]

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Thank you Brother Kintsun for enlightening me. Yes, totally agreed. This is the way to treat history, and in fact, to treat everything in life. We don't want to be ¡u®t¤£¦h¥ý¥Í¡v¡C
Thank you again.  

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Tiutiu111, thanks for your views.

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­ì©«¥Ñ dorothytiffany ©ó 2009-6-25 08:03 µoªí
2. The place name "Cheung Kwan O" has been in use  rather than "Junk Bay".  People always claimed that "Junk Bay" is the only English name during this time but this proves wrong. (My view: You are absolutely right - misunderstandings by some people)

I have further checked some prime source of "Cheung Kwan O" and "Junk Bay", including published names of "recognised villages" (villages that were in existence in 1898 and were entitled to grant of Small House and burial rights, etc) as well as early maps. I can now made some supplements:
1. "Tseung Kwan O"  is the name of a recognised village and its name appears in various documents and maps;
2. The area of water near Tseung Kwan O has been named as "Chung Kwan O" (earliest maps), "Tseung Kwan O", "Junk Bay", or "Tseung Kwan O(Junk Bay)".  Therefore, the misunderstanding that the bay was originally known as "Junk Bay" cannot stand.

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­ì©«¥Ñ dorothytiffany ©ó 2009-6-25 08:03 µoªí Thanks, Brother Kintsun. This is one of the very first New Territories public auctions (doesn't look like the later "restricted" public auction and I must presume that it is a true public auction. Due ...

are you an estate surveyor ? So professional

Thanks again for these supplements.

Therefore, there were many English names long existing in the past for the present Tseung Kwan O.  They were:
1. Chung Kwan O
2. Cheung Kwan O
3. Tseung Kwan O
4. Tseung Kwan O (Junk Bay)
5. Junk Bay

For Chinese name, just one - ±N­x¿D.

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­ì©«¥Ñ ¦Ë¶éBB ©ó 2009-6-26 02:47 µoªí
As being a chartered surveyor (MRICS or ARICS) , I think you should know the English Land Lease Lease hold and free holdAs being a chartered surveyor (MRICS or ARICS) , I think you should know the English Land Lease System and Deed System.

Only private land would have been awarded with either lease hold or free hold. Only one private property in Hong Kong was awarded as free hold in one dollar term. Do you know where it is?

Other government properties and facilities (castle) will have no period limitation as it was exempted from laws (previous namely Exemption Ordinance).

If the so called "castle" had the lease and land mark, it will not be a castle logically. No private castle was allowed in Hong Kong Colony according to previous letter of patent.

...

Brother ¦Ë¶éBB : The land system in the New Territories (including New Kowloon) is much more complicated than the HK Island and Kowloon. I can recommend some books / papers for you to read if you are interested.

Talking about freehold properties in Hong Kong, the only freehold church property had its own unique background, belonging to the trustee of Church of England which was very powerful in Endgand at that time. As a matter of fact, although some earlier influential merchants tried to force the Government to sell properties in auctions as freehold, their request was not enetertained. Nevertheless, as a sort of compromise, some early properties granted with a term of 999 years are virtually freehold properties.

You may also be interested to explore other forms of military land holdings in Hong Kong, including Ministry of Defence (MOD) lots, grant by ordinances, etc. These are interesting topics for research but are outside the scope of the present discussions.

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